Recent Changes for "Front Page" - FISA Debate Wiki

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:35:38

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:34:05

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- =Summary of Primary Arguments for Telecom Immunity= - =and Their Counterarguments=	+ =Summary of Primary Arguments for Telecom Immunity and Their Counterarguments=

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:33:49

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:33:29

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:26:06

(quick edit)

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- 1. Telecommunications companies earn hundreds of millions of dollars on government surveillance contracts, and even cut-off surveillance when the government doesn't pay its bills.	+ 1. Telecommunications companies earn hundreds of millions of dollars on government surveillance contracts, and has even cut-off surveillance when the government didn't pay its bills.

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:24:13

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- For detail, sources, and other arguments, click [http://fisa.wikispot.org/Telecom_Immunity_Arguments here].	+ (For detail, sources, and other arguments, click [http://fisa.wikispot.org/Telecom_Immunity_Arguments here].)

Front Page

karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:22:33

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- Summary of Primary Arguments and Counterarguments for Telecom Immunity	+ =Summary of Primary Arguments and Counterarguments for Telecom Immunity=

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:21:43

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- '''Argument 1 in favor of Telecom Immunity'''	+ For detail, sources, and other arguments, click [http://fisa.wikispot.org/Telecom_Immunity_Arguments here]. + + '''Argument 1 in favor of Telecom Immunity: It wasn't illegal'''
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	+ + '''Argument 2 in favor of Telecom Immunity: Even if not legal, not Telecom's fault''' + + Legality aside, the activity was conducted at the behest of US President and the program was deemed legal by the US Attorney General. The Telecoms acted in good faith and were morally obligated to comply with the requests. If laws were broken, it is the fault of the administration, not the companies who complied out of patriotism. + + '''Counterarguments''' + 1. "Good faith" violations are protected by existing FISA law, therefore new legislation specifically immunizing Telecoms is not necessary. In other words, if Telecoms can show they acted in good faith, lawsuits will be dismissed. Why is the legislature even involved in this judicial activity? + + '''Argument 3 in favor of Telecom Immunity: FISA laws are complicated''' + Telecom executives and lawyers are not experts in this complicated area of Constitutional law. + + '''Counterarguments''' + 1. This is not a question of Constitutional law, but rather of Federal law. + 2. At least one telecom (Qwest) had the ability to understand the law and refused the administrations demands. + + '''Argument 4 in favor of Telecom Immunity: Telecoms cannot defend themselves because of secrecy''' + + The telecommunications companies who participated in surveillance activities at the government's request — and even those who did not — are not able to defend themselves, due to the secrecy of the activities. It is not fair to allow these companies to face civil or criminal litigation, since they are unable to defend themselves in public or in court. + + Counterarguments + + 1. Existing FISA law provides grants specific means for defense while protecting US security. + + '''Argument 5 in favor of Telecom Immunity: Lawsuits threaten financial viability of Telecoms''' + + The telecommunications companies who participated in surveillance activities didn't do so for monetary gain, but rather at great risk to their financial solvency, reputation, stock value, and even the safety of their employees. They face severe financial hardship from defending lawsuits, as well as from possible judgements against them. + + 1. Telecommunications companies earn hundreds of millions of dollars on government surveillance contracts, and even cut-off surveillance when the government doesn't pay its bills. + 2. U.S. Telecommunications companies are worth Billions of dollars. + 3. Telecoms spend millions of dollars annually lobbying the government, including contributing to Republican and Democratic election campaigns. + 4. Telecoms spend millions of dollars annually launching lawsuits. + + '''Argument 6 in favor of Telecom Immunity: US Govt depends on cooperation for intelligence''' + + The US government depends on the citizens, organizations, and companies to keep the people safe. Our intelligence cannot obtain the intelligence it needs without cooperation. Cooperation will decrease if the litigation against these companies is allowed to continue. Other companies and industries will also be loath to comply with future requests out of fear of lawsuits. + + Counterarguments + + 1. If the government issues warrants, the telecoms must comply or they will be breaking the law.

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karrsic — 2008-06-17 22:01:52

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- #redirect Telecom Immunity Arguments	+ Arguments and Counterarguments for Telecom Immunity + + '''Argument 1 in favor of Telecom Immunity''' + + The activities undertaken by the telecommunications companies to assist the government in surveillance activities at the President's request were not illegal and did not violate any rights of consumers or citizens. Those who have filed civil lawsuits against these companies make dubious claims and have no right to sue. + + '''Counterarguments''' + + 1. The activities were illegal. The telecoms knowingly violated at least four separate federal statutes. + 2. Some telecom companies refused to cooperate because they were concerned about the programs legality. + 3. The FISA law explicitly addresses the matter of civil suits, stating that civil action is appropriate.

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karrsic — 2008-01-23 06:03:13

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- #redirect FISA Debate Summary	+ #redirect Telecom Immunity Arguments

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2008-01-23 05:57:50

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Front Page

karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:29:56

Renamed to "FISA Debate"

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- =FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (FISA)= - According to [http://en.wikipedia.org WikiPedia], "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978] is a U.S. federal law prescribing procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between or among "foreign powers" on territory under United States control. - - On December 17, 2007 the Senate took up consideration of S. 2248, the renewal of FISA legislation. There are many controversial aspects of the bill, not least of which is a provision granting immunity to telecommunications companies alleged to have broken FISA laws. - - - The primary, short-term interest of this Wiki is to document the arguments in favor of and salient counter-arguments to the Intelligence committee version of the proposed legislation and specifically, the granting of immunity to telecommunications companies. - - Proposed structure: - Front Page (this page): project description, relevant links, Final list of summarized arguments and counters - Additional pages: discussion regarding specific arguments; debate detail from Senate floor - - - First, quotes from proponents of the Intelligence Committee bill: - - '''Mr. Rockefeller''' - ''Four Principle Reforms of The Patriot Act'' - 1. "First, the special procedures provided by this bill apply only to persons outside the United States. If somebody is in the United States--an American is in the United States--all the traditional provisions and protections of FISA continue to apply. Everyone agrees this should be the case." - 2. " Second, our bill recognizes that minimization procedures have been an essential part of FISA from the beginning and will continue to play an essential role. These will be explained. These are procedures to ensure, among other things, that if Americans are overheard in conversations of a foreign target or there is discussion about Americans, that the identity of those Americans only be revealed within the U.S. Government if there is a good foreign intelligence purpose for so doing. - - The Protect America Act had provided that the Attorney General approve minimization procedures, but it did not provide for court review of them. Our bill corrects that deficiency. The FISA Court will now have the responsibility to ensure that the procedures comply with the law." - 3. "Thirdly, our bill provides protections for U.S. citizens who are outside the United States. Under the Protect America Act, if a U.S. citizen sets foot outside the United States, he or she would be treated the same as any foreigner outside the United States. - - The Intelligence Committee rejects the proposition that Americans lose rights--any kind of rights--because they travel or work elsewhere in the world. An essential part of the rights of an American is the determination by a judge whether there is probable cause to believe an American outside the United States is a lawful subject of surveillance by our own Government. " - 4. The fourth principal accomplishment of the Intelligence Committee bill is that it considerably enhances oversight of these protections by each branch of Government. This is achieved through a series of annual reports to Congress on the authorized collection, including instances of noncompliance; inspector general reviews by the Justice Department and the intelligence community; and FISA Court review and approval of acquisition and minimization procedures." - - ''Justifications for Telecommunications Company Immunity'' - 1. the companies were not provided with any of the Justice Department legal opinions underlying the Attorney General's certifications they received ordering them to do something which has come to put them at risk. - 2. what the committee approved was not--I repeat: was not--the broad and open-ended immunity sought by the administration. - 3. The committee immunity provision applies only to companies that may have participated in the warrantless surveillance program from a specific period of time--from 9/11--until it was placed under FISA Court authorization in January 2007. Nothing in the bill provides immunity for Government officials for their actions - 4. debate about the President's authority should not fall on telecommunications companies because they responded to the representations by Government officials at the highest levels that the program had been authorized by the President and determined to be lawful and received requests, compulsions to carry it out. - 5. Companies participated at great risk of exposure and financial ruin - - '''Mr. Kit Bond, Missouri''' - ''Support for the August bill, The Patriot Act'' - 1. The intelligence community was shut out of the ability to go up on foreign targets which might have had vital information. - 2. electronic surveillance that was done under the President's program and under the current FISA Court jurisdiction has provided valuable intelligence which has helped to thwart attacks on the United States. - 3. As we heard from GEN Stan McCrystal, the commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, when the outmoded FISA law application shut down our ability to collect foreign intelligence, the people most greatly at risk were our men and women in the service overseas - - ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA'' - 1. the legislation we are looking at today contains far greater protections for U.S. persons than this body ever conceived of or was ever willing to grant Americans when it passed FISA 30 years ago - 2. Some of the things we attempted to do had impossible burdens that we did not understand until we laid them out for these experts. They have told us how to accomplish our purposes and do so in a manner that would be effective in protecting the interests, and yet not destroy the ability of the intelligence community to collect the information we need. - 3. we must pass a good bill that will not get vetoed. - 4. With two small fixes that Chairman Rockefeller and I intend to add to the bill in a manager's amendment, I have been assured that the President will sign that bill. - 5. The FISA Court of Review has said, in the in re: Sealed Case, that the President's power to collect foreign intelligence remains. The President has put this bill under the FISA Court. So he has accepted the jurisdiction of the court in assessing the appropriateness of the collection means that have been requested. - 6. We cannot erase by legislation a constitutional power. That constitutional power that the President has was fully laid out in the opinions and advice given by the Department of Justice and the intelligence community to any carriers that may have participated in the collection of information during the pendency of the President's terror surveillance program. - - '''Mr. Jeff Sessions, Alabama''' - ''On civil libertarians'' - 1. We are capable of getting excited about an issue and taking theoretical positions that end up, as a practical matter, leaving our country at greater risk - 2. e have made two dramatic errors some years ago in a situation just like this, on emotion driven by our civil libertarian friends, such that a wall was put up between the FBI and the CIA which barred the sharing of information between those two critical agencies. - 3. We also mandated that the Central Intelligence Agency officers could not obtain information from people deemed to be dangerous. - 4. Many Members of this body were warned when they were made the law of the United States, they were warned then that if we did these things it was not wise. But, oh no, the others loved the Constitution more, they loved liberty more, so these unwise laws were passed. - 5. Last year, a Federal court ruled, based on changes in technology, that those laws we passed effectively limited the collection of critical communications of foreign intelligence. - 6. [Admiral McConnell said] The United States was unable to conduct critical surveillance of ..... foreign terrorists planning to conduct attacks inside our country. - 7. As of this date, there has been no example of abuse of that act. [The August Patriot Act] - 8. A court ruled that these procedures we had been using for some time, must, according to statutes we passed, go through a certain number of procedural hoops that, as a practical matter, would have eliminated the possibility of us continuing these surveillance techniques. - 9. I don't think it is fair to say the program was illegal. But certainly the procedures were not unconstitutional because this summer, when we passed the Protect America Act, we effectively concluded the program was good and constitutional. We affirmed the program. - 10. perhaps we ought to write President Bush a letter and tell him: Thank you. We are sorry we accused you of violating our Constitution and basic civil liberties. After the Congress spent weeks studying this, we passed a law that basically allowed the program to continue as it was. - - '''Mr. Saxby Chambliss, Georgia''' - ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA'' - 1. This bill only infringes on one group's right to privacy, and that is terrorists. - 2. Prior to congressional action in August, and again if we do not make permanent these changes, our intelligence community was unable to collect vital foreign intelligence without the prior approval of a court - 3. If our intelligence community wanted to direct surveillance at an al-Qaida member located in Waziristan who was communicating with another terrorist in Germany, they would have to first petition the FISA court for approval. - 4. Congress must act swiftly before our core collectors are faced with losing valuable intelligence as a result of inaction by Congress. - 5. When FISA was enacted in 1978, it was meant to provide our Government with the means to collect foreign intelligence within the United States while not infringing upon U.S. citizens' rights. - 6. Regulating the collection of foreign intelligence, including the electronic surveillance of foreign communications made by terrorists, was neither contemplated during FISA nor by the courts after enactment of FISA. - 7. These amendments to FISA would only apply to surveillance directed at individuals who are located outside the United States. - 8. The Government still would be required to seek the permission of the FISA Court for any surveillance done against people physically located within the United States, whether a citizen or not. - 9. They wish to extend the warrant requirement of the fourth amendment currently not bestowed under U.S. criminal law and procedure to American citizens overseas. The U.S. laws do not extend beyond our border, but the Supreme Court has held that certain fundamental rights such as those protected by the fifth and sixth amendments, as well as the reasonableness requirement of the fourth amendment, do extend to U.S. citizens outside the country. - 10. However, despite the opportunity, the Supreme Court has refused to hold that the warrant clause of the fourth amendment applies abroad for U.S. citizens. - 11. In a criminal prosecution, U.S. courts will accept evidence against U.S. citizens obtained by foreign governments without the probable cause demanded by U.S. law. U.S. courts recognize that the Bill of Rights does not protect Americans from the acts of foreign sovereigns, and excluding evidence obtained by them will not deter foreign governments from collecting it. Therefore, the evidence can be turned over to the United States and used in a criminal prosecution. - 12. Currently, under Executive Order 12333, section 2.5, the Attorney General may authorize the targeting of a U.S. person overseas upon finding probable cause to believe that the individual is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power. The intelligence community will now be required to obtain authorization from the FISA Court prior to conducting surveillance against terrorists or spies overseas who assist foreign governments merely because they are United States persons. - 13. It is my belief that the intelligence community has demonstrated to Congress how judicious, selective and careful they have been when it comes to protecting the very small number of U.S. citizens this applies to and does not necessarily need the court to approve their actions every step along the way. - 14. it prevents the intelligence community from acting quickly and with discretion in a process which has worked well to protect U.S. citizens for almost 30 years. - 15. I believe that the bill which was ultimately adopted by the committee, and with my support, contains troubling language which should be altered before enactment. - 16. The ability to collect the intelligence necessary to protect our country from foreign adversaries and terrorists should not be subjected to partisan politics in Congress. - - ''On telecom Immunity'' - 1. he Government often needs assistance from the private sector in order to protect our national security and, in return, they should be able to rely on the Government's assurances that the assistance they provide is lawful and necessary for our national security. - 2. As a result of this assistance, America's telecommunications carriers should not have to front heavy legal battles shrouded in secrecy on the Government's behalf. - - '''Mr. Jon Kyl, Arizona''' - ''On the Patriot Act'' - 1. We are now able to collect intelligence in ways that were never understood or contemplated years ago when the law was drafted. As a result, we need to change the law to accommodate that collection. - 2. Before we changed the law last year, we had lost about two-thirds of the ability to collect intelligence against al-Qaida. - 3. When we did the Protect America Act last summer, we regained the capability to collect that intelligence by conforming the legal procedures to the technology that enables us to collect this material. - - ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA'' - 1. We also know that the best way to deal with al-Qaida and the like is to collect intelligence so we can prevent attacks from occurring rather than worrying about them after they have occurred. - 2. he agencies executing wiretaps and conducting other surveillance must report their activities to Congress and to others, so the opportunities for domestic political abuse of these authorities is eliminated. - 3. Our people certainly don't have time to try to spy on Americans. That is not what is involved. - 4. We have to be careful that in creating this oversight we don't cut deeply into the capabilities of our intelligence community, that we don't in effect limit what they are able to do. - 5. If you compare the Intelligence Committee bill with the Judiciary bill, you will see that the Judiciary bill would severely limit this collection of intelligence - 6. The Intelligence Committee bill, which is the bill we are taking up first and which we should adopt, includes a provision that has been labeled the Wyden amendment which, as written, would require a warrant for any overseas surveillance that is conducted for foreign intelligence purposes and targets a U.S. person. - 7. we already have protocols to deal with that, to minimize any potential problems that might arise in conducting intelligence that would include a U.S. person. But the way the Wyden amendment is written is overly broad and unprecedented. - 8. Under current law, a warrant would not be required for overseas surveillance that is targeted to a U.S. person if that surveillance is conducted for purposes of a criminal investigation. - 9. the Wyden amendment would create a requirement for a warrant to go after foreign terrorists involving also potentially U.S. persons, but it would not require a warrant in those circumstances of drug trafficking or money laundering that involve the very same people. - 10. Do we want to allow our intelligence agencies to use the most up-to-date technology to track and prevent attacks by the most evil people in the world today, these al-Qaida terrorists, or are we so concerned about some potential theoretical, possible situation in which an American citizen's communications might be temporarily intercepted, if they call an al-Qaida person or an al-Qaida person calls them, that we are not going to take advantage of these intelligence-collection techniques?	+ #redirect FISA Debate

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:25:46

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	+ + Proposed structure: + Front Page (this page): project description, relevant links, Final list of summarized arguments and counters + Additional pages: discussion regarding specific arguments; debate detail from Senate floor +

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:23:15

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- '''Mr. Jon Kyle, Arizona'''	+ '''Mr. Jon Kyl, Arizona'''

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:22:30

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:21:59

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- 13. t is my belief that the intelligence community has demonstrated to Congress how judicious, selective and careful they have been when it comes to protecting the very small number of U.S. citizens this applies to and does not necessarily need the court to approve their actions every step along the way.	+ 13. It is my belief that the intelligence community has demonstrated to Congress how judicious, selective and careful they have been when it comes to protecting the very small number of U.S. citizens this applies to and does not necessarily need the court to approve their actions every step along the way.
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- ""Mr. Jon Kyle, Arizona"" - "On the Patriot Act"	+ '''Mr. Jon Kyle, Arizona''' + ''On the Patriot Act''

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:20:51

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	+ + ""Mr. Jon Kyle, Arizona"" + "On the Patriot Act" + 1. We are now able to collect intelligence in ways that were never understood or contemplated years ago when the law was drafted. As a result, we need to change the law to accommodate that collection. + 2. Before we changed the law last year, we had lost about two-thirds of the ability to collect intelligence against al-Qaida. + 3. When we did the Protect America Act last summer, we regained the capability to collect that intelligence by conforming the legal procedures to the technology that enables us to collect this material. + + ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA'' + 1. We also know that the best way to deal with al-Qaida and the like is to collect intelligence so we can prevent attacks from occurring rather than worrying about them after they have occurred. + 2. he agencies executing wiretaps and conducting other surveillance must report their activities to Congress and to others, so the opportunities for domestic political abuse of these authorities is eliminated. + 3. Our people certainly don't have time to try to spy on Americans. That is not what is involved. + 4. We have to be careful that in creating this oversight we don't cut deeply into the capabilities of our intelligence community, that we don't in effect limit what they are able to do. + 5. If you compare the Intelligence Committee bill with the Judiciary bill, you will see that the Judiciary bill would severely limit this collection of intelligence + 6. The Intelligence Committee bill, which is the bill we are taking up first and which we should adopt, includes a provision that has been labeled the Wyden amendment which, as written, would require a warrant for any overseas surveillance that is conducted for foreign intelligence purposes and targets a U.S. person. + 7. we already have protocols to deal with that, to minimize any potential problems that might arise in conducting intelligence that would include a U.S. person. But the way the Wyden amendment is written is overly broad and unprecedented. + 8. Under current law, a warrant would not be required for overseas surveillance that is targeted to a U.S. person if that surveillance is conducted for purposes of a criminal investigation. + 9. the Wyden amendment would create a requirement for a warrant to go after foreign terrorists involving also potentially U.S. persons, but it would not require a warrant in those circumstances of drug trafficking or money laundering that involve the very same people. + 10. Do we want to allow our intelligence agencies to use the most up-to-date technology to track and prevent attacks by the most evil people in the world today, these al-Qaida terrorists, or are we so concerned about some potential theoretical, possible situation in which an American citizen's communications might be temporarily intercepted, if they call an al-Qaida person or an al-Qaida person calls them, that we are not going to take advantage of these intelligence-collection techniques?

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:10:53

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- 12.	+ 12. Currently, under Executive Order 12333, section 2.5, the Attorney General may authorize the targeting of a U.S. person overseas upon finding probable cause to believe that the individual is a foreign power or agent of a foreign power. The intelligence community will now be required to obtain authorization from the FISA Court prior to conducting surveillance against terrorists or spies overseas who assist foreign governments merely because they are United States persons. + 13. t is my belief that the intelligence community has demonstrated to Congress how judicious, selective and careful they have been when it comes to protecting the very small number of U.S. citizens this applies to and does not necessarily need the court to approve their actions every step along the way. + 14. it prevents the intelligence community from acting quickly and with discretion in a process which has worked well to protect U.S. citizens for almost 30 years. + 15. I believe that the bill which was ultimately adopted by the committee, and with my support, contains troubling language which should be altered before enactment. + 16. The ability to collect the intelligence necessary to protect our country from foreign adversaries and terrorists should not be subjected to partisan politics in Congress. + + ''On telecom Immunity'' + 1. he Government often needs assistance from the private sector in order to protect our national security and, in return, they should be able to rely on the Government's assurances that the assistance they provide is lawful and necessary for our national security. + 2. As a result of this assistance, America's telecommunications carriers should not have to front heavy legal battles shrouded in secrecy on the Government's behalf.

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 20:04:35

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	+ ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA'' + 1. This bill only infringes on one group's right to privacy, and that is terrorists. + 2. Prior to congressional action in August, and again if we do not make permanent these changes, our intelligence community was unable to collect vital foreign intelligence without the prior approval of a court + 3. If our intelligence community wanted to direct surveillance at an al-Qaida member located in Waziristan who was communicating with another terrorist in Germany, they would have to first petition the FISA court for approval. + 4. Congress must act swiftly before our core collectors are faced with losing valuable intelligence as a result of inaction by Congress. + 5. When FISA was enacted in 1978, it was meant to provide our Government with the means to collect foreign intelligence within the United States while not infringing upon U.S. citizens' rights. + 6. Regulating the collection of foreign intelligence, including the electronic surveillance of foreign communications made by terrorists, was neither contemplated during FISA nor by the courts after enactment of FISA. + 7. These amendments to FISA would only apply to surveillance directed at individuals who are located outside the United States. + 8. The Government still would be required to seek the permission of the FISA Court for any surveillance done against people physically located within the United States, whether a citizen or not. + 9. They wish to extend the warrant requirement of the fourth amendment currently not bestowed under U.S. criminal law and procedure to American citizens overseas. The U.S. laws do not extend beyond our border, but the Supreme Court has held that certain fundamental rights such as those protected by the fifth and sixth amendments, as well as the reasonableness requirement of the fourth amendment, do extend to U.S. citizens outside the country. + 10. However, despite the opportunity, the Supreme Court has refused to hold that the warrant clause of the fourth amendment applies abroad for U.S. citizens. + 11. In a criminal prosecution, U.S. courts will accept evidence against U.S. citizens obtained by foreign governments without the probable cause demanded by U.S. law. U.S. courts recognize that the Bill of Rights does not protect Americans from the acts of foreign sovereigns, and excluding evidence obtained by them will not deter foreign governments from collecting it. Therefore, the evidence can be turned over to the United States and used in a criminal prosecution. + 12.

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:58:59

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	+ 4. Many Members of this body were warned when they were made the law of the United States, they were warned then that if we did these things it was not wise. But, oh no, the others loved the Constitution more, they loved liberty more, so these unwise laws were passed. + 5. Last year, a Federal court ruled, based on changes in technology, that those laws we passed effectively limited the collection of critical communications of foreign intelligence. + 6. [Admiral McConnell said] The United States was unable to conduct critical surveillance of ..... foreign terrorists planning to conduct attacks inside our country. + 7. As of this date, there has been no example of abuse of that act. [The August Patriot Act] + 8. A court ruled that these procedures we had been using for some time, must, according to statutes we passed, go through a certain number of procedural hoops that, as a practical matter, would have eliminated the possibility of us continuing these surveillance techniques. + 9. I don't think it is fair to say the program was illegal. But certainly the procedures were not unconstitutional because this summer, when we passed the Protect America Act, we effectively concluded the program was good and constitutional. We affirmed the program. + 10. perhaps we ought to write President Bush a letter and tell him: Thank you. We are sorry we accused you of violating our Constitution and basic civil liberties. After the Congress spent weeks studying this, we passed a law that basically allowed the program to continue as it was. + + '''Mr. Saxby Chambliss, Georgia'''

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:52:43

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	+ + '''Mr. Jeff Sessions, Alabama''' + ''On 'civil libertarians'" + 1. We are capable of getting excited about an issue and taking theoretical positions that end up, as a practical matter, leaving our country at greater risk + 2. e have made two dramatic errors some years ago in a situation just like this, on emotion driven by our civil libertarian friends, such that a wall was put up between the FBI and the CIA which barred the sharing of information between those two critical agencies. + 3. We also mandated that the Central Intelligence Agency officers could not obtain information from people deemed to be dangerous.

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:42:10

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	+ + First, quotes from proponents of the Intelligence Committee bill:

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:38:38

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- ''Support for Intellgience committee version of FISA'	+ ''Support for Intelligence committee version of FISA''
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	+ 2. Some of the things we attempted to do had impossible burdens that we did not understand until we laid them out for these experts. They have told us how to accomplish our purposes and do so in a manner that would be effective in protecting the interests, and yet not destroy the ability of the intelligence community to collect the information we need. + 3. we must pass a good bill that will not get vetoed. + 4. With two small fixes that Chairman Rockefeller and I intend to add to the bill in a manager's amendment, I have been assured that the President will sign that bill. + 5. The FISA Court of Review has said, in the in re: Sealed Case, that the President's power to collect foreign intelligence remains. The President has put this bill under the FISA Court. So he has accepted the jurisdiction of the court in assessing the appropriateness of the collection means that have been requested. + 6. We cannot erase by legislation a constitutional power. That constitutional power that the President has was fully laid out in the opinions and advice given by the Department of Justice and the intelligence community to any carriers that may have participated in the collection of information during the pendency of the President's terror surveillance program.

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:20:35

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- 6.	+ + '''Mr. Kit Bond, Missouri''' + ''Support for the August bill, The Patriot Act'' + 1. The intelligence community was shut out of the ability to go up on foreign targets which might have had vital information. + 2. electronic surveillance that was done under the President's program and under the current FISA Court jurisdiction has provided valuable intelligence which has helped to thwart attacks on the United States. + 3. As we heard from GEN Stan McCrystal, the commander of the Joint Special Operations Command, when the outmoded FISA law application shut down our ability to collect foreign intelligence, the people most greatly at risk were our men and women in the service overseas + + ''Support for Intellgience committee version of FISA' + 1. the legislation we are looking at today contains far greater protections for U.S. persons than this body ever conceived of or was ever willing to grant Americans when it passed FISA 30 years ago

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:13:29

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- ''Justifications for Telecommunications Immunity''	+ ''Justifications for Telecommunications Company Immunity'' + 1. the companies were not provided with any of the Justice Department legal opinions underlying the Attorney General's certifications they received ordering them to do something which has come to put them at risk. + 2. what the committee approved was not--I repeat: was not--the broad and open-ended immunity sought by the administration. + 3. The committee immunity provision applies only to companies that may have participated in the warrantless surveillance program from a specific period of time--from 9/11--until it was placed under FISA Court authorization in January 2007. Nothing in the bill provides immunity for Government officials for their actions + 4. debate about the President's authority should not fall on telecommunications companies because they responded to the representations by Government officials at the highest levels that the program had been authorized by the President and determined to be lawful and received requests, compulsions to carry it out. + 5. Companies participated at great risk of exposure and financial ruin + 6.

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:08:06

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- Four Principle Reforms	+ ''Four Principle Reforms of The Patriot Act''
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- The Protect America Act had provided that the Attorney General approve minimization procedures, but it did not provide for court review of them. Our bill corrects that deficiency. The FISA Court will now have the responsibility to ensure that the procedures comply with the law."	+ The Protect America Act had provided that the Attorney General approve minimization procedures, but it did not provide for court review of them. Our bill corrects that deficiency. The FISA Court will now have the responsibility to ensure that the procedures comply with the law."
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- The Intelligence Committee rejects the proposition that Americans lose rights--any kind of rights--because they travel or work elsewhere in the world. An essential part of the rights of an American is the determination by a judge whether there is probable cause to believe an American outside the United States is a lawful subject of surveillance by our own Government. "	+ The Intelligence Committee rejects the proposition that Americans lose rights--any kind of rights--because they travel or work elsewhere in the world. An essential part of the rights of an American is the determination by a judge whether there is probable cause to believe an American outside the United States is a lawful subject of surveillance by our own Government. "
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	+ + ''Justifications for Telecommunications Immunity''

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 19:06:16

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- According to [WikiPedia], "[The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act of 1978 is a U.S. federal law prescribing procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between or among "foreign powers" on territory under United States control.	+ According to [http://en.wikipedia.org WikiPedia], "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978] is a U.S. federal law prescribing procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between or among "foreign powers" on territory under United States control.
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- On December 17, 2007 the Senate took up consideration of S. 2248, the renewal of FISA legislation. There are many controversial aspects of the bill, not least of which is a provision granting immunity to telecommunications companies alleged to have broken the FISA laws.	+ On December 17, 2007 the Senate took up consideration of S. 2248, the renewal of FISA legislation. There are many controversial aspects of the bill, not least of which is a provision granting immunity to telecommunications companies alleged to have broken FISA laws.
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	+ + '''Mr. Rockefeller''' + Four Principle Reforms + 1. "First, the special procedures provided by this bill apply only to persons outside the United States. If somebody is in the United States--an American is in the United States--all the traditional provisions and protections of FISA continue to apply. Everyone agrees this should be the case." + 2. " Second, our bill recognizes that minimization procedures have been an essential part of FISA from the beginning and will continue to play an essential role. These will be explained. These are procedures to ensure, among other things, that if Americans are overheard in conversations of a foreign target or there is discussion about Americans, that the identity of those Americans only be revealed within the U.S. Government if there is a good foreign intelligence purpose for so doing. + + The Protect America Act had provided that the Attorney General approve minimization procedures, but it did not provide for court review of them. Our bill corrects that deficiency. The FISA Court will now have the responsibility to ensure that the procedures comply with the law." + 3. "Thirdly, our bill provides protections for U.S. citizens who are outside the United States. Under the Protect America Act, if a U.S. citizen sets foot outside the United States, he or she would be treated the same as any foreigner outside the United States. + + The Intelligence Committee rejects the proposition that Americans lose rights--any kind of rights--because they travel or work elsewhere in the world. An essential part of the rights of an American is the determination by a judge whether there is probable cause to believe an American outside the United States is a lawful subject of surveillance by our own Government. " + 4. The fourth principal accomplishment of the Intelligence Committee bill is that it considerably enhances oversight of these protections by each branch of Government. This is achieved through a series of annual reports to Congress on the authorized collection, including instances of noncompliance; inspector general reviews by the Justice Department and the intelligence community; and FISA Court review and approval of acquisition and minimization procedures."

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karrsic — 2007-12-21 18:48:33

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- Welcome to your new wiki! This is your wiki's Front Page. So what do you do now?	+ FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT (FISA) + According to [WikiPedia], "[The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act of 1978 is a U.S. federal law prescribing procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between or among "foreign powers" on territory under United States control.
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- = Quick Start Guide! = - 1. First read the rest of this page! - 2. If you haven't already, read the [wiki:wikispot:"Wiki Creator Guide"] and [wiki:wikispot:"Wiki Guide"]. - 3. Go to ["Wiki Settings"] and change the settings for your wiki! - 4. Click the edit button up top of this page and create your new front page. - 5. Start adding content to your wiki and read about [wiki:wikispot:"building community"] - 6. Tell your friends, family, acquaintances, enemies, multiple personalities, etc. - 7. Celebrate!	+ On December 17, 2007 the Senate took up consideration of S. 2248, the renewal of FISA legislation. There are many controversial aspects of the bill, not least of which is a provision granting immunity to telecommunications companies alleged to have broken the FISA laws.
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- = Default Pages Included With Your Wiki = - This is a simple list of of all pages included with your wiki. You will hopefully create many, many more!
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- * ["All Pages"] is an automatically generated list of all the pages in your wiki. - * ["Bookmarks"] is for your bookmarks on this wiki. Every user has his/her own bookmarks page based on what they choose to bookmark on this wiki. To bookmark a page, simply click "Bookmark" at the bottom of the page! ([wiki:wikispot:"Interwiki Bookmarks"] on wikispot shows you all of your bookmarks on all wikis.) - * ["Front Page"] is the page you're currently viewing. - * ["Events Board"] is a page where anyone can post events in the community. - * ["Help"] links to the main help pages on wikispot -- useful for reference. - * ["Interwiki Map"] -- link to non-Wiki Spot wikis using [wiki:wikispot:"interwiki links"] by adding names and URLs of wikis to this page. - * ["Orphaned Pages"] contains an automatically generated list of pages with no links to them. Ideally, this page should be empty -- keep your wiki well-linked! - * ["Outgoing Links"] lists all pages sorted by the number outgoing links on each page. This provides a good place to start if you're feeling [wiki:c2:"WikiGnome" gnomeish] and want to link-up some pages with few to no links. - * ["Quick Wiki Tips"] -- At the top of ["Recent Changes"] shows randomly selected tips from this page. - * ["Recent Changes"] shows all the recent activity on the wiki in a given time period. This page lets everybody see what's happening in your wiki! ([wiki:wikispot:"Interwiki Recent Changes"] on wikispot shows you the recent changes on all the wikis you're watching.) - * ["Random Pages"] is a randomly generated list of twenty-five pages. Good for finding pages to edit once your wiki grows large. - * ["Site Organization"] has links to pages that help you keep your wiki well organized. - * ["Templates"] is a user created list of template pages -- pages that you can use as starting blocks for making new pages. ["Templates/Business"] is there just to give you an idea of what a template should be. - * ["User Statistics"] is a page that displays statistics, such as the number of edits, for each person who's edited your wiki. - * ["Wanted Pages"] contains all the pages that are linked to, but do not yet exist. This is another good place to start [wiki:c2:"WikiGnome" gnomeing]. - * ["Wiki Sandbox"] is a place for users to play around with the wiki without disturbing your content. - * ["Wiki Settings"] contains the administrative settings for your wiki. - * ["Wiki Settings/CSS"] is the page where you can upload different style sheets that change your wiki's appearance. - * ["Wiki Settings/General"] contains general settings for your wiki. - * ["Wiki Settings/Images"] allows you to customize images on your wiki, such as your logos. - * ["Wiki Settings/Security"] lets you change the default security settings of your wiki and create user groups to control access. - - = Making new pages! = - To create a new page, simply search for the name of the page you wish to create and then click the "Create a new page with this title" link. Another way to create a new page is by making a link to the page you wish to create from a page that already exists, following the link, and clicking "Create this page."	+ The primary, short-term interest of this Wiki is to document the arguments in favor of and salient counter-arguments to the Intelligence committee version of the proposed legislation and specifically, the granting of immunity to telecommunications companies.